Posts by Jonathan Drake

556

The Watchtower are Right About Blood...

by cofty in

... but, they fail to take note of one important detail.. i believe that if we are going to have any chance of reasoning with a jw about blood, this is the place we need to begin.. don't try to convince them that it was only a dietary law.

it wasn't, and they will never go along with it.. don't tell them that saving a life is more important than obeying a law, even a seemingly trivial one.

they take pride in obedience.

Jonathan Drake

@ Marvin

to be fair even the Jews much later didn't really stick to just pouring out the blood. Around Jesus time there were people who would collect blood running down the drain from the sacrifices and then sell it as fertilizer, making a profit.

I think I see where you're coming from now maybe, but I think it's a point that you'd really struggle to make with witnesses. As a witness I would have just said the point remains the sacred nature of life, the blood being respected was just a symbol of that sacredness. It really wasn't about the blood, it was about the life. Blood was being used as a symbol of life.

I would also have argued that the expounding on this law later by Moses showed that people weren't respecting life as much as they should have and so more specific restrictions were set. But blood was never the issue, it was only used as a symbol.

That would be my argument. I think coftys OP does a good job of sidestepping all such rebuttals.

556

The Watchtower are Right About Blood...

by cofty in

... but, they fail to take note of one important detail.. i believe that if we are going to have any chance of reasoning with a jw about blood, this is the place we need to begin.. don't try to convince them that it was only a dietary law.

it wasn't, and they will never go along with it.. don't tell them that saving a life is more important than obeying a law, even a seemingly trivial one.

they take pride in obedience.

Jonathan Drake

@Marvin

i feel really dumb, but for some reason I am not following. I don't see a difference between Gen 9:4, 5 and Lev 17:14. I think I get what you are saying, you can never FULLY drain blood right? Watchtower has addressed that line of reasoning though. I don't remember where, but I remember reading it.

556

The Watchtower are Right About Blood...

by cofty in

... but, they fail to take note of one important detail.. i believe that if we are going to have any chance of reasoning with a jw about blood, this is the place we need to begin.. don't try to convince them that it was only a dietary law.

it wasn't, and they will never go along with it.. don't tell them that saving a life is more important than obeying a law, even a seemingly trivial one.

they take pride in obedience.

Jonathan Drake

Personally, I think the OP is great. I've brought up this subject a few different ways and was met with opposition. Establishing that common ground might just do the trick better than coming off instantly with opposition, no matter how reasonable the opposition.

@Marvin, it was only the blood and not the flesh that was seen as having the life in it. I have no idea why that is so specific, but Cofty is right. It's in Leviticus 17:14. How they rationalized eating the flesh as not part of it I don't know, that's a good question.

@pressmen how can the bible be inspired? It tells the story of a flood which we can prove never happened. Depending on your belief you might believe the earth is only 6000 years old, which is demonstrably wrong. The book of Daniel was likely written in something like the 160s BCE? So every prophecy in it is AFTER the fact. The bible itself, in Hebrews 11 says that faith is the assured expectation of something not seen - it's accepting something about which there is no proof. But when the proof, the real evidence, is stacked AGAINST the bible then why do we need faith at all?

In my experience, you're likely to have rationalization a for all of this and anything else I could think of; so bible discussions are pointless until you see it for yourself IMO. I think researching evolution would open your eyes, it did mine.

274

Indiana "Religious Freedom" (right to discriminate)

by Simon in

sickening to see the photo of the religious zealots all stood around the governor signing into law the right for people to discriminate against others (gay, lesbian, trans-gender) based purely on religious dogma.. if religious people want those freedoms then the can't have it both ways - they cannot complain if *they* are discriminated against.. "sorry, we don't like zionists, get out".

"oh, it's some special mass and you can't work your shift?

you're fired!"..

Jonathan Drake

@DJS let me try to say what I meant differently.... *thinking...

Okay so I was saying kind of I think what you're saying here:

Within a generation or so this will be a moot point. Gay marriage and equal access will be the norm, and people in the future will look back at the haters in 2015 and compare them to the KKK and other 20th Century hate mongers. And that's not an opinion.

The difference being, in my opinion, this law and any like it that come, along with the attitudes that support it, will slow down the inevitable outcome you spell out here. It's an outcome I agree is inevitable, I think though that this sort of thing happening (this law and these attitudes that support it) actively push back the date that inevitability is realized. What if by the time we, as a people, are finally at that point of enlightenment it's too late?

im not sure, but re-reading your posts I think I'm mostly agreeing with your point. I just don't know what libertarians or x-tians are.

274

Indiana "Religious Freedom" (right to discriminate)

by Simon in

sickening to see the photo of the religious zealots all stood around the governor signing into law the right for people to discriminate against others (gay, lesbian, trans-gender) based purely on religious dogma.. if religious people want those freedoms then the can't have it both ways - they cannot complain if *they* are discriminated against.. "sorry, we don't like zionists, get out".

"oh, it's some special mass and you can't work your shift?

you're fired!"..

Jonathan Drake

never a jw7 minutes ago
JD,
Sorry, I must have dyslexia. It should have been DJS

Oh okay. I was so confused! It's all good my friend. You guys are talking about some stuff I don't know the first thing about. But it sounds interesting.

43

Atheism

by Jonathan Drake in

jw
friends

recent events and book reads (one suggested by cofty i believe- thank you) have lead me to the only logical and acceptable conclusion:.

there is no god.. simple logical reasoning: matter can neither me created or destroyed.

so the amount of mass in the universe is constant.

Jonathan Drake

@heaven

i didnt know know that was a thing!

9

One Scripture To Trash the Org: 1st John 4:18

by freemindfade in

1st john 4:18 .

18 there is no fear in love,+ but perfect love casts* fear out, because fear restrains us.

indeed, the one who is fearful has not been made perfect in love.+.

Jonathan Drake

I've got one for you.

hebrews 7:23, 24

Furthermore, many had to become priests in succession because death prevented them from continuing as such, but because he continues alive forever, his priesthood has no successors.

Here the mosaic law is being compared to Jesus covenant. The book is claiming that the old law only had priests because the original mediator (Moses) died, and then a line of priests because each priest after would also die. It then says that Jesus is alive forever and will have no such priests.

So then how can the Governing Body possibly be Jesus representative?

27

Ex-Christians being angry

by Jonathan Drake in

jw
friends

i know i'm angry.

i was curious if others are too.

i feel completely justified in my anger as well.

Jonathan Drake

Meditation has helped. Not the weird, transcendantal, metaphysical kind of meditation. Just finding a quiet place, being alone with my thoughts and focusing on nothing but enjoying each breath even for as little as 15 minutes a day has helped ease the anger and resentment.

I will try this, if it'll help me not be so pissed then thats good. I don't like having such a short fuse when it used to be much much longer.

274

Indiana "Religious Freedom" (right to discriminate)

by Simon in

sickening to see the photo of the religious zealots all stood around the governor signing into law the right for people to discriminate against others (gay, lesbian, trans-gender) based purely on religious dogma.. if religious people want those freedoms then the can't have it both ways - they cannot complain if *they* are discriminated against.. "sorry, we don't like zionists, get out".

"oh, it's some special mass and you can't work your shift?

you're fired!"..

Jonathan Drake

never a jw2 minutes ago
JD,
You made quite a great deal of assumptions about me, just because I believe in the greatest amount freedom possible for organized society. You confirmed it, the Christian in you still alive and well.

Wait, what did I do? Have you even posted in this thread I've only caught the last few posts...

4

Likes and dislikes

by Jonathan Drake in

i'm not sure how everyone else feels, but i'd kind of like to be able to see how many likes or dislikes my own post gets.

i think it's be good, and a nice way to gauge your own reception to a discussion and maybe know when to back off or leave on a high note, lol.

Jonathan Drake

Ohhh Lol. I've just always assumed you couldn't see your own! Tbh I never checked!

I feel dumb!